Double Crossed Lines on a an Urn - Can you tell me whose pottery mark this is?

by Will
(New Bern, NC)

Double Crossed Lines on a an Urn - Can you tell me whose pottery mark this is?

Double Crossed Lines on a an Urn - Can you tell me whose pottery mark this is?

Double Crossed Lines on a an Urn - Can you tell me whose pottery mark this is?:- I bought this item at an Estate sale, and I was wondering if you could tell me who the makers mark belongs to.


Many thanks in advance.

Will

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The forum Help Elf says:-

Elsewhere on this site this double crossed lines mark has been attributed to Sitzendorf of Thuringia - a splendid 150 year old company still trading, having survived being burned to the ground in the 19th Century, dodged the bombs of WW2 and the avoided the suffocation of the authoritarian Soviet regime. Porcelain making in the town of Sitzendorf goes back to 1760, so it is a strong driving force for the town.

Their standard mark is usually a crown and S mark - with a small crossed lines device incorporated into the middle of the S.

sitzendorf marks

However, on close inspection, attributing your mark to Sitzendorf may, in fact be incorrect.

The actual crossed lines of the Sitzendorfer mark from the 1887 - 1900 are not quite the same as this mark. Your mark has two double lines crossing over each another, the Sitzendorf mark has a double line crossed with a single slash (looking something like the capital letter H from some angles).

crossed lines marks

So I looked into this further and we are getting into quite obscure waters here because none of my general reference books show either the older Sitzendorfer mark, or your mark.

German specialist site pm&m.com shows the old crossed lines Sitzendorf mark - but has no entry for yours that
I could find.

However, I did eventually find that efineantiques.com shows your mark - quoting a specialist book which identifies the mark as belonging to Schierholz of Plaue. They also show several other marks of this company - some of which are also identified on this site elsewhere.

So we are talking about Von Schierholz of Plaue, Thuringia, Germany (formerly 'C. G. Schierholz & Son' - they changed their name in 1912). According to Robert E. Roentgen in his book "Marks on German, Bohemian and Austrian Porcelain", your mark is shown to have been used by Schierholz c.1865-1911.

However, the experts are arguing between themselves about this obscure area of German pottery marks. According to the excellent (but difficult to navigate) website pm&m.com....

"The info on the 'von Schierholz' factory {in Robert E. Roentgen: Marks on German, Bohemian and Austrian Porcelain} is full of errors.

So let's say, to conclude, your mark is shown, by one expert in the field to be that of the Von Schierholz Porcelain Factory, Plaue, Thuringia, Germany, used from c.1865-1911.

Several other marks were used by them, the latest being designed in 1973 after the factory was nationalized and renamed behind the Soviet iron curtain.

Nowadays it is now known as Porcelain Manufactory Plaue, thus, the PMP part of the mark under the crown in their new marking.

crossed lines marks


According to pm&m.com the factory "was bought by 'Seltmann Weiden' and then put under control of {a} subsidiary which Seltmann owned since 1957."

They have a website - use our search engine above to Google it (check the 'web search' button).

Our other page on Schierholz/Plaue is here:-

Schierholz/Plaue crown above M pottery mark

For general free advice on how to research your collection, Peter wrote this page:

value of antiques.

H.E.

Comments for Double Crossed Lines on a an Urn - Can you tell me whose pottery mark this is?

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Possible Fake?
by: Anonymous

I am looking for the ID on the same mark as the OP - I purchased a tea cup with this marking. I found this on the P&M site:
Scroll down to almost the bottom of the page
http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/resources/fake_n_repro/00.php

I fear mine may be a fake although mine does not have a number on it and the lettering is darker blue.

Crossed Line Mark Fakes
by: Peter (admin)

Many thanks for flagging up the link to the PM&M fake marks page. I think that although the fake double crossed lines mark shown by the webmaster on that page is a lookalike, it is actually very to different to the Schierholz of Plaue, 1865-1911 mark shown above.

Look at the angle of the lines. The fake shows two wide angles, whereas the real mark only one. Also the word Austria looks somehow out of place, as do the numbers. The other clue would be to look at the quality of the item.

Peter (admin)
Coburg?
by: Anonymous

Put the words "coburg porcelain mark" into google image search and you will see that some identify this mark as coburg, Dresden
Sitzendorf Mozart entertaining Queen and group
by: John

I have this amazing porcelain group of Mozart playing the piano for The Queen and supporting members of the court.
Does it have any value? The mark on the side is genuine.

John
the mark of Coburg
by: fragilegalien

http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/germany6.shtml
Double line cross/`hash` mark
by: John

This mark IS attributed to Coburg in various marks books and online sources but what most fail to say is that the Coburg factory that used this mark was established in 1739 and ceased trading in 1785. NONE of the pieces that I have seen using this mark are anything like that old.
The combination of the towns of Dresden and Coburg
to describe a Coburg factory is wrong and very annoying. There is no such factory as Dresden Coburg and never has been. Likewise, `Volkstedt Dresden` is also an error. Dresden is in Saxony. Coburg, like Volkstedt ( and Sitzendorf .... and others ) is in Thuringia, over 200 km from Dresden.
Christopher Marshall ( PM&M ) whilst drawing attention to the errors in the Von Schierholz entry in Roentgen is not actually casting doubt on the attribution of the hash mark to the Von Schierholz factory. His particular point is that the Von Schierholz factory was not bought by Royal Tettau but by Seltmann Weiden which was the parent company of Koniglich Tettau ( Royal Tettau ) and the Von Schierholz company was administered by Koniglich Tettau. The current situation is that Von Schierholz no longer exists and that both Seltmann Weiden and Koniglich Tettau are companies in the `umbrella` PMP 1817, Porzellanmanufactur Plaue - organisation. There seems little doubt that the hand drawn `hash` ( double line cross ) mark is that of Von Schierholz and that it was in use until comparitively recently - albeit with other marks in more recent years. Examples can be viewed here : http://www.steinmarks.co.uk/pages/pv.asp?p=stein231 ..... A page that offers what is pretty well incontrovertible evidence of the company that used the `hash mark. The similar PRINTED hash mark with the word Austria has no relevance to this discussion or the companies mentioned.
Coburg
by: John

I`ve just discovered that although Coburg was in Thuringia for the majority of the time relevant to this discussion, it`s inhabitants elected that the town should join Bavaria in 1920.
The Coburg/Von Schierholz/Tettau/Seltmann/PMP (Porzellanmanufactur Plaue) Connection
by: Peter (admin)

Hi John

Once again, a precise and telling contribution helping to clarify our unwanted wooliness about makers and their marks.

Yours gratefully, as always

Peter (admin)

p.s. apologies for not being in touch lately, but I will be back on it shortly!
Similar Pieces as Will's
by: Laurie

I have 5 pieces with the same hash marks and look as the piece Will shows. However, mine says Austria with a number in gold. I've read all the postings but still can't quite understand if these are "fake" pieces or real - and if real what valuation am I look at? I have a small dish that was my grandmothers (She was born in Vienna in 1899)and I "assume" she brought it with her when she came here in the early 1900s - I purchased additional matching pieces at an antique shop several years ago.
Thanks for any insight!
Mystery maker of the pair of musicians. Only clue is letter 'H'
by: Peter (admin)

Notes:

This article by Barry has been added to this thread as it shows a great example of the Sitzendorf crossed lines or capital letter H pottery mark. Barry tried, but was unable to find his mark in my search engine because I had omitted to put the wording relating the mark being, in its appearance, being very similar to a capital letter 'H'. I was thinking more about the hash and the crossed lines etc etc. Anyhow, problem hopefully solved as from now. Here's Barry's article. My answer is below . . .

------------------------------

Hi Peter

Every few years I try to research this pair of figures and always give up in frustration.


1884-1902-sitzendorf-voigt-letter-h-mark

I used your search engine to check for the 'H' in the photo, but as comprehensive as your system is, I am still unable to shed any light on this pair.

From memory, I think a small breakthrough I made two or three years ago, was identifying the pattern on the drum as being that of a French military man of the 17/18th Century, but I still couldn't find one to match them exactly when searching on Google.

They belonged to my grandmother and I know they meant a lot to her. She died in 1980, aged 90. I think she bought them from a friend in the 1930's or 1940's, when she was living in rural Northumberland, in North Eat England.

The lady my Grandmother bought the items from, was moving to a smaller house, following the death of her husband, and had to part with a lot of furniture and objects she simply didn't have room for.

My Grandmother talked about her friend whose husband travelled widely, bringing cases of objects from abroad. Apparently, the Manor House, where she lived was a fascinating place, packed with antique furniture and ornaments collected from China, Africa and across Europe.

I know the lady in question, collected a lot of quality pieces, which makes it all the stranger that I can not track down the makers. I inherited other figures from my grandmother, who I believe were purchased at the same time, but they can remain a mystery for another time.

The figures stand around 16cm in height.
I have attached four photos, one of the pair from the back, showing the 'H'; one of the underneath of both, showing the '11', (or whatever those marks are); and two of the figures themselves.

You will see on the back of both figures, what I call a 'letter H' (in italic?), in a rust/brown colour, although the colours are different shades on the two pieces.

It seems to me that the some glazes are different to others, that some have a sheen to them and in contrast, others have a 'dull' or matt look to them.

Until now I hadn't realised just how much detail there is on them, in particular on the clothes.

The tunic of the drummer has intricate detail of repeated patterns, some only 1-2mm in length. Similarly the lady's skirt has very small patterns on it.

In the largely orange skirt, there are oval panels containing flowers, with each flower having each petal clearly visible. Each identical flower has five petals and different coloured centre and gold stem.

On the bases are two small (4mm)lines (maybe No.11?).

I am surprised to say this is the first time I have come across your website, but I think I was concentrating on the design and images more than the makers mark in the past.

I am hopeful someone can help me discover how old the figures are and where they were made.

I have moved house many times over the years and unfortunately, the drummer has fallen victim to travelling and lost one hand and his drumstick. His companion is more fortunate, only sustaining a small chip to the hat and base.

I am too attached to these characters to part with them, so there is no intention to sell them but I am interested in their history.

I look forward to any replies.

Regards

Barry

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Reply by Peter (admin)

Hi Barry

Thanks for a well written article describing the details of your love for this nice pair.

I can, at last, solve your mystery.

These are the work of the Sitzendorf/Voigt factory of Germany and date from 1884-1902.

See above for more on this firm.

Peter
Sitzendorf
by: Barry

Hi Peter
Many thanks for your response. I have gone from knowing nothing of the origin of these figurines, to a wealth of knowledge, thanks to you.
What's more, having now looked at other examples of Sitzendorf pottery online, it looks as though I have three pairs of them, not one. None of which I had been able to identify. (I will post pictures if you are interested).
Thanks again!
Best regards
Barry
Michael.
by: Antiktime

Thank you. It was instructive.
Michael.
Probably Josef Riedl
by: Anonymous

The double crossed mark if overglaze or with Austria underneath is most likely Josef Riedl.

Both early Sitzendorf and Schierholz pieces seem to always be hand painted with an underglaze mark, while the overglaze mark (with and without Austria) always seems to be transfer decorated.

The mark has shown up on many pieces that are 100% identical in decoration to pieces marked with an overglaze beehive above Austria (Josef Riedl). Some of those pieces are on identical blanks as well, which doesn't mean other companies would not have bought the same blanks, but it does show he was fond of those blanks.

If he copied one mark and put Austria below it then it seems logical he may have done the same with another mark. The font is also identical to his mark.
The Drummer Boy NEW
by: John

I have acquired this figure with a what I regard as a Sitzendorf mark of an "h" in blue. (about 1900.) Apparently, it's a figure based the contemporary drawings of the "Cries of Paris" by Edme Bouchardon.
The drummer boy can be found here.

https://www.getty.edu/art/mobile/interactive/bouchardon/index.html#

This is exciting because there is a possibility that, far from being a one off figure, there are actually other, perhaps, a whole series out there based on these drawings.

1885 - 1927: Porzellanfabrik Victoria Schmidt & Co
by: Anonymous

Hi guys just to let you know the mark is Schierholz. But something interesting I have noticed over the years. I have had Von SCHIERHOLZ pieces with the line marks only. Later I have had the line marks on similar porcelain but with the word "Austria" added underneath the lines. Recently I have a similar teaset full of Kaufman type paintings and it has the SCHIERHOLZ line marks but it also has a stamped mark of this company 1885 - 1927: Porzellanfabrik Victoria Schmidt & Co. The mark reads Victoria Czecho-Slovakia crown mark. So all the teaset pieces have the line marks with the crown Victoria mark. But one piece has the beehive mark instead of the lines. So it is either 1885 - 1927: Porzellanfabrik Victoria Schmidt & Co copied SCHIERHOLZ marks and added the lines on there pieces along with beehive marks. Or SCHIERHOLZ was connected somehow with Victoria Schmidt & co
Double crossed lines
by: Dale Armstrong

I have a porcelain pitcher with an apparent transfer ware on front & gilded on the handle and around the base and spout. It has the double cross in blue and I think the blue word Austria printed below the crossed lines. Would the printed mark indicate this was made before 1912? My grandmother's grandparents came from Germany but my grandmother could have also bought this herself in the US in her lifetime. I'm trying to determine where it was made and its current value. Thanks!
A rather ornate belleek style basket
by: Anonymous

Hi, wonder if anyone can help I have this ornate basket on a plinth with double crossed swords. It is very detailed with tiny porcelain blue flowers with belleek style porcelain basket the only marking is a blue double crossed swords
The fake Schierholz mark is Josef Riedl. NEW
by: Anonymous

The transfer printed Schierholz copy mark is NOT Schmidt & Co, Victoria. And they are definitely not Schierholz, considering the Schierholz mark is underglaze, hand painted and not symmetrical, there are examples of the mark with Austria underneath. Plaue, Thuringia has never been in Austria.

Almost all pieces with the mark was Schmidt & Co, Victoria blanks, but they are not decorated by Schmidt & Co. Schmidt & Co sold their blanks to other factories, which is why some pieces will have a Victoria mark. The Victoria mark on these piece is an underglaze manufacturer's mark. Manufacturer's and decorators are two different things.

The fake Schierholz mark is most likely, as I said before, Josef Riedl. Josef Riedl is the one who used a "beehive" shield mark with the word Austria underneath. The "beehive mark" shows up on Schmidt & Co Victoria Austria/Victoria Carlsbad BLANKS decorated in the Royal Vienna style. The font for the word Austria is 100% identical to the font of the word Austria on fake Schierholz marks. The blanks are all identical ones that Josef Riedl used. The fake Schierholz mark only shows up on pieces in a specific style. 100% transfer decorated, colored Dresden Watteau style panels over a colored background, with Neoclassical scenes depicting Greek/Roman mythology. This is just Josef Riedl using different marks for slightly different styles. He had a fake Sevres mark as well for another style, with Austria underneath the mark in the same font.
Additional marks
by: Catherine

Hi
I have a pair of small vases, about 10cm tall which in addition to the hash mark also have a very indistinct mark in gold, shaped roughly like four circles, touching each other to make a squarish shape. I would have included an image but can't figure out how to do that. Can anyone shed any light on the golden marks?

Large porcelain clock with double cross, Germany and numbers
by: Silvia Bayer

I have this large antique cherub and a lady porcelain clock with that double cross with blue ink,Germany and the number29, engraved. Under the 29 there's another 9. And under one foot there's the number 30 printed with purple ink. Its 16" tall, very very detailed flowers and the woman is beautiful with life-like expression on her face. Hand painted.
I want to sell it and need to know how much money to ask for it. I would appreciate any help. Thanks in advance.

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