Pottery Marks - Hummel Fakes (Arnart) and Look-alikes (W & A - Wagner & Apel)

by Peter (Admin)

Pottery Marks - Hummel Fakes (Arnart) and Look-alikes (W & A - Wagner & Apel)

Pottery Marks - Hummel Fakes (Arnart) and Look-alikes (W & A - Wagner & Apel)

Pottery Marks - Hummel Fakes (Arnart) and Look-alikes (W & A - Wagner & Apel)):- Follow up to: Fake Hummels


recap:

The above link takes you to Diana's original query about her Hummel look-alike figurine which I answered incorrectly. Diana wrote in to politely inform me as follows:-

    "dear peter, thanks for the information you gave me about fake arnart hummel figures, but i am sorry to say the information you gave me was wrong, i checked all the Japanese porcelain marks including arnart and none of them matched.

    now the good news because you pointed me in the right direction i now know that the figure was made by WAGNER AND APEL (W & A) GmbH, PORCELAIN FIGURINES LIPPELSDORF, LIPPELSDORF54, 98743 GRAFENTHAL/THUR.

    I have sent them an email and await a reply. so thanks again for steering us in the right direction. Yours Faithfully Diana Ryan."


Having just had a query about the same subject - a Hummel look-alike figurine with a crown label (see top photo) - I automatically attributed Diana's mark (without seeing a photo of the mark) to the Arnart Hummel rip-offs (designed by German artist Erich Stauffer). Arnart were big importers of cheap Japanese goods in the 1950's and 60's - also with a crown label.

I very much appreciate work of this type by our visitors. SO a big thank you to Diane.

Peter (Admin)

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additional comments by Peter (admin) below - just scroll down...

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Further Comment by Peter (admin)

To:- Diana's contribution to sorting out the Arnart Figurines from the W & A - Wagner & Apel figurines

Hi Diana

This is very exciting information and I very much appreciate you following up with such excellent detective work.

Please could you tell me where you got this excellent advice (ed. Diana says she put the term 'W & A figures' into Google and got to an information site - when I tried this search term, I drew a blank).

I was mistaking your description of the mark with the Arnart label with a crown - see above (this was probably a deliberate ploy by Arnart). Photos are always best, otherwise slip ups like this can happen.

I also show above, a photo of two W & A pottery marks (ed. Diana confirmed the right hand side mark was the same one as hers).

I did not know about WAGNER AND APEL (W & A) making these Hummel like children figurines until your query - so I am delighted to have gained this new knowledge which I am sure will also be helpful to many visitors to the site.


W A Pottery Mark with Crown - {ed. Fake Hummel Figures}




Here is
some background to Wagner & Apel (W & A):-

See also W & A, Wagner and Apel Porcelain Ballerina Page

Wagner & Apel (W & A), Porcelain Manufacturer, founded 1877 in Lippelsdorf, Thuringia, Germany

The company went through various reconstructions - Porzellanmanufaktur Kuch & Co. (1877 - 1883), Porzellanmanufaktur Wagner, Apel & Leube (1883 - 1901), Porzellanmanufaktur Wagner & Apel (1901 - 1948), V.E.B. Porzellanfiguren Lippelsdorf (1949 - 1990) and finally Porzellanmanufaktur Wagner & Apel G.m.b.H. (1990 to current day)

Obviously the history of the W & A company reflects the tumultuous history of Europe in the 20th Century - the pre-WW2 period concentrated on the figures based upon the popular German story books of illustrators Hilla Peyk and Bertram, sculpted by German sculptor Eugen Dotterweich. In 1913, Wagner & Apel (W & A) employed 150 people and remained at about that number until the beginnings of the troubles of the war period in 1937. After the war, the town fell into the control of the Soviet block and the factory was nationalized. In 1990 with the fall of the Berlin Wall, Wagner & Apel (W & A) was put back into the hands of the original family ownership.

Quite a story with a happy ending!

I, for one, really like these WAGNER AND APEL (W & A) figures you have discovered, they are relatively rare and have a great collectability factor. I think, with the right type of write up they could sell for a fair amount of money on ebay.

    **New Edit

    I have been looking into W & A, Wagner & Apel further since Diana's query and have discovered they may not have been following in the Goebel Hummel footsteps at all, but developing these little children figurines at the same time as Goebel, if not before.

    What I have found is that Goebel kilns were first purchased in 1879. Before that, they had nothing to do with ceramics. W & A, Wagner & Apel were founded in 1877, so they pre-date Goebel as a ceramics maker. So who did the little children figurines first? W & A, Wagner & Apel were producing popular story book figures in the pre-WW2 period (from Hilla Peyk and Bertram's artwork). Sister Hummel's figurines were only launched by Goebel after 1935. So who influenced whom? We need an expert collectors knowledge (post any contributions in the comments section below).

    end edit**


Diana, you seem to be a naturally lucky antiquer. Keep it up!

Best regards,

Peter (admin)

p.s. The following page is a 'must see' if you are researching fine china - for value and identification:-

Researching the identity and value of antique and vintage fine china.

Please post comments below which you think might be helpful……


Comments for Pottery Marks - Hummel Fakes (Arnart) and Look-alikes (W & A - Wagner & Apel)

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W&A Figures
by: Shirley A

I myself have 6 female figurines , 2 have colour on the others do not, which I purchased in East Berlin between 1987 and 1988,before the wall came down, which I believe to be W & A. I am wondering how and where I may get these valued, also I have 4 small boy figures which are flesh and white in colour

Shirley

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Further Comment by Peter (admin)

Hi Shirley

Well done for having such a nice collection of W & A. You have two choices to get these pieces valued. You can do it the free way by going to my page with helpful tips on how to value china antiques and vintage ware.

Best regards

Peter (admin)
Information on W&A marks
by: Smifffy in UK

For all your German figures and figurines etc the only place you need to go, and although I have no connection to the site I have found it incredibly informative. Link: www.porcelainmarksandmore.com

It is a collectors site and is absolutely chock full of information on identifying and dating German, Bavarian, Bohemian etc porcelain.
I really cannot recommend it highly enough.
Mister Smifff

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Peter (admin) says:- I couldn't agree with you more. The only annoying thing about that site is they list makers regionally which makes it mighty hard to find a random mystery mark.... but a great source if info and I mention them much on my pages.
W&A figurine - girl with basket
by: Julije

Hi,
I have W&A figure and below stamp it says Bertram, it is a girl with basket (not like one in picture of Diana but similar)I was wondering did Diana was able to find out how much it is worth.
As i find out this one is around 1930-40.
ARNART Numbering Info
by: Norine

I was given a few ARNART figurines by my grandmother about 45 years ago. Unfortunately, one of my rescue pets destroyed them. I am heartsick and starting to look to replace. Because of this, it started me looking into ARNART and Erich Stauffer. I found that the numbering on my large figurines all had the same number to them, whereas smaller figurines were numbered separately. Is there any information out there that shows a list of the figurines or atleast provides a clue on their numbering system, how many different ones were made? Thanks for your assistance. - Norine
Arnart Numbering System
by: Peter (admin)

Hi Norine

Up until recently you could have asked them, as the Arnart import company was still in business in the US. However, I'm not sure where numbering records of this type would be kept now the company is not around anymore.

Perhaps if other collectors see this thread, they can chip in and we can build up a database of what these numbers mean right here online. Norine, you have made a start, at least, thanks for that.

Perhaps an old employee of the import company will spot this thread and be able to give some info?

I would normally suggest contacting the experts via my 'liaise with the experts' page here:- but I don't think this type of mass import product would fit the remit of what's on their database.

Let's sit tight and hope someone can contribute more on the Arnart numbering system.

Peter (admin)
Arnart - Erich Stauffer Numbering
by: Norine

Peter - Thanks for your reply. Somehow, by the grace of God I was able to replace one of the figurines that was destroyed. My grandmother may not have touched it but when I look at it, I know what was in her heart when she gave it to me.

I would love to find someone out there who really knows about the Arnart - Erich Stauffer figurines. How they were numbered and if there was any brochures back in those days. To some they may be rip-offs but to us sentimentalists they have real value.

I look forward to anyone providing information. Contact me by using the comment form here and we can chat.

Thanks again! -- Norine

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Peter (admin) says:- Norine, look at this new photo - is this anything like your Arnart Hummel marks?

Pottery mark Query- Crossed Arrows, Points Down

Pottery mark Query- Crossed Arrows, Points Down
"bertram" wagner and apel figurines
by: Anonymous

Hi

I have recently purchased wagner and apel figurines with the name bertram. One is a boy with frog the other is a boy with a dog (a poodle). I was wondering if anyone can provide some information on these and when they were made
Hummel duet
by: Sandy

Hello, I was given by a relative in the 50s a Hummel duet on a pedestal and a single Hummel singer. There are no marks. The bottom of the pedestal has a small round hole in the middle. They are in excellent condition and color is good. Are these unmarked figurines collectible? If so, what would the value be?

Thanks for your help.

Sandy

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moderator comment:-

Peter does not tend to get involved in discussion on value in this particular section.

For valuation advice go here:

Peter's vintage and antique china values page
hummel look alike
by: judith

hi peter i have two look alike hummels they are a pair. boy girl holding baskets with a lamb at their feet were in mt mothers cabinet. they have a crown on the bottom with an A joined to it. i have looked at several pottery marks but havent come across this . yes my mother collected junk
Capital letter "A" on Hummel Look-alike Figurines
by: Peter (admin)

Judith

Your mother may have collected junk, but your figures might be gold-dust to this website. This is because we have been seeking to identify a mysterious capital letter "A" pottery mark with a crown for several years.

You may just have the solution.

Please upload pictures of your mark and figures here and put your title as "Judith's Solution to Crowned A Mark".

That would be a great clue in this ongoing mystery. Thanks in advance.

Best regards

Peter (admin)
heather basket with 1877 and crown on pottery mark
by: mumamafia

i have recently purchased a small porcelain (i think)heather basket with gold trim on edge and on the handle with small bunches of flowers on the inside , on the underneath it has a blue crown stamp and underneath this stamp is 1877 GDR please can you try and help me find out more about this. i know it may be from germany
thank you.

FIGURINES SCULPTURE

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Peter (admin) says:-

This is a mark of Porzellanfiguren Lippelsdorf (also known as Wagner & Apel and previously Kuch & Co., the original company founded in 1877 - use the in-house search top right of this page to see other Wagner & Apel listings on this site and other websites - particularly http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/thuringia/lippelsdorf_1/00.php) and was used between 1951 and 1974 in various versions.
heather basket ?
by: mumamafua

Hello,
thank you taking the time to reply to my email.. Thankz also for the links.

Pleae can you tell me where i could possible find out if i have a fake or not or will i beable to fid it thru this site..
thank you once again.

I shall reply with any info i manage to find.
all the best
mumamafia
FAKE OR THE REAL THING
by: mumamafia

Hello Peter,

I have checked out the link you gave me,
if i am correct it seems that this may have been made 1950's+.

I have checked the fake markings and cannot see mine listed, does this mean i can take it as genuine? and do you think i maybe able to get anymore info on this particular item?

Peter do you know anything about chinese/japanese
markings and porcilain/ bonechina?

Thanking you for your time and help,.
Mumamafia
Not a fake
by: The Forum Help Elf

To set your racing mind at rest...... there would be little point in exactly faking an easily identifiable mark from the 1950's on items from work-a-day porcelain factories such a Wagber & Apel because items from that era are not yet old enough to have achieved a collectible value.

Where the Far East fakers (aka reproduction specialists!) seem to operate is the area where a mark is loosely associated with or somehow hints at a mark which could be associated with high quality antique wares (like the crossed arrows of Kalk or the N & C marking of Camille Naudot). The more obvious targets are of course are wares like Hummel which are later in date, but have already achieved a collectible following, or more obvious famous names from the world of antique china.

The reason the repro people tend to be more subtle and go for quality names most people won't have heard of, is they don't want to be too obvious, I suspect. I don't really know about this strange and nefarious underworld of fake markings, but all I know is I can see the 'pattern' of what fake stuff there is around, and there must be a good market for the system they use, otherwise, why would anyone bother?

H.E.
heather basket ?
by: mumamafia

thank you very much for your reply Elf.
I shall just wrap it up with the others ive collected and put them in bubble wrap for a day in the future when my gran children can enjoy them
thanking youagain
mumamafia
Sailor Boy 11765
by: Marcus

Hi There, I have a piece of porcelain and cant seem to identify who made it and when. It is a young boy with blue shorts on sat on a rock with a model boat in his right arm. It is marked underneath with GDR and a crown over the top and has the number 11765 stamped on it( Similar to a Lladro stamp). It also has the number 26 printed on the bottom. Any help would be great thanks, Marcus
fake hummel P with a crown
by: Anonymous

I have two figurines, one representing a girl with two geese looking at a tree, and the other one is a boy with a goose. Both have a mark I seem to not find anywhere: it's a P with a crown on top, a lot like the Capodimonte mark, just with a P instead on an N. Do you know which maker this sign represents? thank you in advance
Fakes with a 75 cent price marked on bottom
by: Susan

I too have a figurine of a little girl wearing a scarf. She is seated and is playing an accordian
while she appears to be singing. There is a small white basket on her arm. The back of her skirt has GERMANY inscribed and below that it is #20495 . Its whats on the bottom that puzzles me.
In handwritting it has SEC 19 or maybe it reads SE@19 on the lefthand side. the other side has the # 076/0650 and 75 cents None of this rubs off.
I am at a loss making this out. Does anyone know what I have here? Thank you !
W & A Marks with 75 on the backstamp
by: Peter (admin)

Hi Susan

I think I can solve your mystery. I have seen these markings on the back of Soviet/USSR figurines too. Wagner & Apel were a great German company, but don't forget, the factory fell behind the Iron Curtain and was part of the Soviet block up until re-unification in the 1990's.

The Soviets had a communist regime which ran things from 1917 on a completely different economic footing than the capitalism we all know. I can't even begin to know how and why, within communism, the prices would be fixed in such a way as to be imprinted on the pottery mark, but I am sure an economics expert could tell us.

Obviously communism, a grand and utopian ideal, which seemed like a good idea at the time (to many intellectuals and thinkers in the West as well as Russia) failed abjectly, leaving many millions of people to live out their lives in miserable conditions. But then again, right now, Capitalism, with the collapse of the banking system and the debt ridden and faltering economies of Europe and the US doesn't seem to be faring much better, does it? Ideas anyone? Anyway, I digress, back to pottery marks......

Peter (admin)
Easter Chicks
by: Anonymous

Three chickens, yellow 780 781 782. Approx 3' tall wide (laying down).Thought it was early Goebel but Crown atop blue mark base
with possible W (a tiny & sign?) and A? but could be WH or WP...hard to see.

Looks similar to Wagner and Apple.

Any comments welcome.
hummel-like by tricht ?
by: Anonymous


Hello,

I have recently purchased a figurine at a yard sale. It's a boy in traditional green german/Bavarian hunters outfit which holds a rifle to a bunny's nose, the bunny has his front paws up in the air as if he'd say, " I surrender ". On the bottom it is stamped with ' western Bavaria/Germany and the Company's name seems to read either Tricht or Fricht. What exactly did I purchase and what's the value of it?

Regards,
Stefanie
Thanks for the W & A Info!!!
by: Kathy

There is a piece in my personal collection that until just recently after deciding to down size did I realize had the W & A mark. Not only did it have this mark but also has Hilla Peyk on the bottom & then upon further inspection actually inscribed as part of the piece on the base at the back left side! I'm thinking that after reading your info I may be a bit more excited now!
Hummel Fake?
by: Neil

Hi,
I have what appears to be a Hummel figure but I can't find reference to it anywhere. It has a 1950 incised Goebel mark and the TMK-2 printed large bee mark. However, it has an incised number KF901B or KP901B on the base and I can find no figure with this number.
The figure is a statesman with a red coat and a cocked hat, a grey wig and blue trousers.
Can you shed any light on this figure, is it a Hummel or a fake.
Thanks
Unmarked kneeling angel, porcelain? Help to determine origins please!
by: Vicky

Hello! My mother received this angel when she was young. Her aunt moved to NJ from Poland in early 1910's. The aunt (born 1889) had this angel and gave to my mom. I cannot find any markings only know it is older than 1950. Any suggestions as to how to begin my search to it's origins? Please and thank you in advance!octoid
Fake feathered friends Hummel?
by: Tereasa

I have a fake without a mark at all? The Hummel "Feather Friends." Please tell me what this is sending a link of the figurine on my facebook page. Respond to Tnmess223@aol.com Thank you, sincerely. www.facebook.com/photo
Fake Hummels
by: Stan

My grandpa has started collecting Hummels since we had to move him to a retirement home, as Hummels seem to be the "in" thing among the inmates there. The woman in the next room, Mrs. McGillicuddy, has an enormous Hummels collection, hundreds and hundreds of them.

However I noticed that she has some Hummels that don't appear anywhere else in guides. Some have a logo on the bottom that looks like two crossed arrows, and some have a bee like real Hummels, but others are marked with a very small crown logo with what appears to be "Terrance and Phillip" incised on them.

Some of them are very familiar Hummels, like "Merry Wanderer" and "Umbrella Girl," but others I've never seen before, like "Golden Shower," "Member Berry Picnic," and "Soda Fountain."
VERY OLD NEW
by: Jennifer

Peter,

I just found 2 Hummel figures that seem authentic and may be VERY old. One is of 2 boys. One boy is playing a drum and the other holding a musket. The stamp on the bottom is mostly worn off, but I can see tracings of red or brown or orange writings. The letters are in cursive I think. The boy playing the drum has a dog under his foot. The boy holding the musket has a red cap on.

The other figure is a larger girl and younger boy. The girl is holding a basket in one arm and 2 orange flowers in the other hand. She seems to be singing. The boy has an orange kerchief around his neck. The bottom is marked with a stamp that is so old that I can't even make out any letters - just traces.

Both are so old that some of the paint on the hair of the figures is worn off the tips. Also, the bases of the figures are light brown with decorative repeating cream colored ovals and diamonds linked going around the bases.

Let me know what you think...

Jennifer

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