'R' Pottery Mark (or 'J' combined with an R) on Porcelain Sconce

by Kim
(Ithaca)

'R'  Pottery Mark (or  'J' combined with an R) on Porcelain Sconce Pottery Mark Query

'R' Pottery Mark (or 'J' combined with an R) on Porcelain Sconce Pottery Mark Query

'R' Pottery Mark (or 'J' combined with an R) on Porcelain Sconce Pottery Mark Query:- hi: I have searched the web, AND all the books in the library and cannot find the mark on this piece of porcelain. I have asked experts on line and now have three different answers!


I have gained a ton of respect for those who identify makers marks, and, honestly, find that this "hunt" is actually a fun adventure.

This piece of Meissen like porcelain, in PERFECT condition, has been in my parents home since they were married 62 years ago. Due to its origin, and because it is not her style, my mother always hated it, and finally slipped it out of the house to me a few weeks ago.

It was given to my mom by her mother-in-law, and given to her by my father's first girlfriends mother ( i am presuming pre WW2 since my father was in that war ).

At first glance the maker's mark looks like an "R", but on closer inspection it looks like a J combined with an R.

I am trying to upload two pics - one of the piece and one of the mark.

Kim

Reply from Peter (admin) below - just scroll down


HOW I MADE MONEY FROM BITS & BOBS OF OLD CHINA

antique china values
.....more



Reply by Peter (admin)

To:- 'R' Pottery Mark (or 'J' combined with an R) on Porcelain Sconce pottery mark query

Hi Kim

Fascinating story!! Thanks for posting it. Of course the hunt is fun. We are all hunter/gatherers - that's why we collect things ;-)

And thanks for using a second form to upload a picture of the sconce itself. I am very grateful. It's always useful to see both the pottery mark AND the piece.

I'd love to hear what the three different experts said and who they were - can you let me know?

While I can only guess what they might have said, to my eyes your sconce doesn't have the finesse I would associate with genuine Meissen production. It almost exactly reminds me of the style of work in this Meissen porcelain mark query which had a really badly faked crossed swords pottery mark. It looks almost like the same hand which made both.

While you're clearly enjoying the hunt - which is what it's all about!

Hopefully hear from you again soon.

Best regards,

Peter (admin)

p.s. The following page is a 'must see' if you are researching fine china - for value and identification:-

Researching the identity and value of antique and vintage fine china.

Please post comments below which you think might be helpful……


=========================================

Further comment by Kim

hey peter:

yes, i also saw the "fake meissen" post and thought this looked a lot!! like that.

The other experts said:

1. Rosenthal (wiw2u.com)

2. "Your piece is German but not Rauenstein but one of the smaller Dresden makers. I forget the name right now. "

3. Joseph Robert (france)

i don't want to quote from where on the last two without permission....people are funny about that....

I am beginning to think one must be a bit OCD to be into this.. i don't know WHY i feel like a dog with a bone over this piece of porcelain with most likely little to no $$ value..


Kim


===============================

Further comment by Peter (admin)

Because it's fun: the thrill of the chase!

LET'S GO THROUGH THE SUGGESTIONS ONE BY ONE:-

1. Rosenthal.

No possible connection between a Rosenthal mark and your mark. Not even close as far as I can see. The item is SOOO not Rosenthal.

The only connection is Rosenthal now owns Hutschenreuther (since 2000). Between 1857-1920 Hutschenreuther had a mark which had a JR mark - nothing like yours, before their famous lion mark became the standard see:-

http://www.int.rosenthal.de/index.php/page/1096/newspage/english_Sammeln_Tipps_1381.htm

I can't see that wiw2u.com would suggest such a connection unless they didn't actually see the mark or the item. They are an excellent outfit.

2. Small Dresden maker. Highly likely.


3. Robert Factory, Marseilles.

The factory of Joseph-Gaspard Robert known best for for its faience and and porcelain with elaborate floral decoration. Trouble is most of this stuff is in museums as they stopped making in the 18th Century. You would be rich if this was theirs. They were renowned for VERY GOOD QUALITY. Does this suggest a bad rip-off of Meissen to you?

Their various marks sometimes bear the monogram of the initials of the manufacturer which joined the J and the R like yours, more often it was a single letter R. Anyway, the Robert factory initials mark always has as a dot above the J and is totally unlike the long stroke of the R on your mark.

I can't see any expert having set eyes on the sconce and the mark suggesting no. 1 or 3. That's my view as a non-expert. Please advise more on the wiw2u.com suggestion??!!

Peter (admin)

Comments for 'R' Pottery Mark (or 'J' combined with an R) on Porcelain Sconce

Click here to add your own comments

.
by: Anonymous

Hi I was wondering if you found out what this was, I too have a similarly marked item, and can find little to no information about it.

====================================

Moderator says:-

Go to this link for more information on this style of dresden studio mark J R Hand Written Porcelain Mark

response
by: Anonymous

The Gaspar factory operated for short time and the originals are very rare. This one in the picture is not very good - looks like a Samson of Paris as is was a very good at reproducing 18th C. porcelain.

So yours is probably late 19th C. Samson of Paris

Many thanks

===========================

The Forum Help Elf says:-

Thanks for your contribution, but no one here knows what you are referring to when you say the the "Gaspar factory". Please post to explain.

H.E.

"R" Pottery Mark
by: Anonymous

I have a pair of scones exactly like yours. I think they are fakes as I only paid 15.00 for mine. Hope this helps. I to had to do much research to try and figure out the mark.

J + R
by: John

I have two porcelain wall circular wall plaques 12 inches in diameter marked with a blue J combined with R The vertical stroke has been extended and a horizontal line forms a “+” which I assume is “J + R”. The background to the wall plaques and mark is similar to that outlined by Kim above. One plaque is of a shepherd boy with pipe (musical) and the other of a maiden carrying a basket of fish. Originally the plaques were housed in circular wooden frames, but unfortunately woodworm have consumed these over the years! Photos could be uploaded. I have searched the web but haven't traced the origin of these plaques yet?

I have one too!!
by: Anonymous

I have a wall pocket with a putti or cherub on the front, the hand painted J (or I)R combined is in a small glazed panel on the back which is white unglazed bisque. I've been trying to find this mark for years! I can upload a photo if you like?

name of maker for JR mark
by: stewart

Hi, Just a Email let you know that your JR mark is the mark for GIULIO RICHARD of MILAN & it dates from 1873-1896. Regards,Stewart.

jacob petit see ebay
by: Anonymous

it is Jacob petit

"JR"
by: Anonymous

The "JR" mark as shown is found on meissen (?) porcelain made for Johanson Roth, who I assume was a retailer, though I have, as yet, found no further details of him.

mark
by: Leonne

http://sammler.com/porzellanmarken/index.asp Describes this mark as Luigi Tinelli in San Cristoforo in Italien im Zeitraum ca. 1870 - 1870.

But the internet knows very little of this particular potter...

pair of oil lamps
by: joe attwood

i have probably the finest pair of oil lamps i have ever seen and have been collecting them for 40 years and see every oil lamp on ebay and cover all auctions they have the jr blue stamp and are porcelain the base being the three graces of greek mythology and the font neptune on his sea chariot with mermaids and cherubs both font and base are marked with the combined jr blue stamp and are of the highest quality i have moores bros lamps and early copeland although lovely they do not compare i understand jr is for johanson roth a meissen maker as i have seen on a number of e bay items but cannot find the marks on markings sites????

jR porcelain mark.
by: John Buxton

Ah - the great jR porcelain debate. Sammler.com certainly ascribes this mark to Luigi Tinelli of San Cristoforo 1870-1870 ( Strange dates ! ) Sammler consider this to be a crown mark - which it is not and their attribution is incorrect. There is a very good Wiki entry concerning Tinelli, Richard, Doccia/Ginori anf Richard-Ginori with all the relevant dates :
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard-Ginori
The Russian website Antikvarchik.com ( http://antikvarchik.ru/findamark/r?page=4 ) states that the mark is that of " JOSEPH-GASPARD ROBERT [mostly on Reproductions made ca late 19thC at Paris Porcelain Workshops, originals are extremely rare] (Marseilles, France) - ca 1770s - 1790s" They show an original mark and the reproduction. It`s a credible explanation but I`m not convinced as all the pieces I`ve seen that bear the `repoduction` mark are NOT on reproduction JOSEPH-GASPARD ROBERT pieces.
The `Meissen made for Johansen Roth` story is a myth that got onto the internet and then was leapt on by a good many American auction houses and dealers GENERALLY. No Meissen expert that I know has heard of Meissen making porcelain for Jacobsen Roth. No-one at Meissen has ever heard of them making porcelain for Johansen Roth. You have to remember that Meissen was owned by the kings of Saxony until 1830 and then by the State of Saxony until WWII. ( After German re-unification Meissen reverted back to State ownership. ) and they put nothing but their own mark on their products. No entry can be found for Johansen Roth in any marks book or expert paper. There might have been a retailer named Johansen Roth but Meissen didn`t make porcelain for them. The body of the JR marked porcelains is different from Meissen anyway. As an example of just how silly things have become, take a look at this recent ebay UK item which is credited to Meissen, Johansen Roth and Siegmund Paul Meyer !!!!

jR porcelain mark.
by: JB

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390958064942

John 'The Knowledge' Buxton
by: Peter

Hi John

As I have said in our recent correspondences, I really like your style and appreciate you sharing your meticulous research.

Here, on this website is just the place for it!!

So thank you.

Recently, you mentioned (offline) that . . .

"As far as the `jR` mark is concerned, I suspect that the problem is that there are multiple sources - ie, the original, some Paris repros AND another factory copying the mark. The disparity in quality and style of the figures bearing the mark suggest a couple of factories - one of which is late 19th/early 20th century and another which is somewhat later in the 20th C. "

That sounds to my like a pretty good explanation of what's going on with this mark, and, as you say, it's getting silly with all the various mythical attributions in search of a fast buck.

Just because I like to do these things, I am going to do a summary of the various attributions people have been bandying around on this page:-

Meissen made for Johansen Roth (Jacobsen Roth?) & Siegmund Paul Meyer
Luigi Tinelli of San Cristoforo - 1870-1870
GIULIO RICHARD of MILAN - 1873-1896
JOSEPH-GASPARD ROBERT - late 19th C
Jacob Petit (Mardouché) 1796-1868
Samson of Paris
The Gaspar factory
Rosenthal
Joseph-Gaspard Robert of Marseilles

Best regards

Peter

I found a couple of the jR marks mentioned above with wares
by: Peter


jacob-petit-porcelain-mark-jp




jr-initial-mark




luigi-tinelli-mark-jr



There is another thread about this mark here www.figurines-sculpture.com/j-with-r-marking-on-tea-set.html. The reason two separate threads developed was that I forgot there was already a thread about this JR mark when the second one was approved for publication. I will try to merge them at some point.

Peter

J with R Marking on tea set (merged from the other thread on the same marking)
by: by Jim (Monroe CT USA)


xj-with-r-marking-on-tea-set



J with R Marking on tea set:- I have a tea set with the J combined with the R marking.
Need help to identify. This set was purchased at an estate sale in Niskayuna NY at Maureen O'Sullivans (Played Jane in original Tarzan) estate.

I've read some other listings that suggest this is french, but the marking is not quite the same. The mark on my tea set has more of a sweeping R.

I don't think it's Robert Joseph, is this a knock off or by another maker?

Thanks

Best regards

Jim

Comments from Jim's Thread on the same JR mark
by: Peter (admin)

Did you find out who the J and R Pottery Mark maker was?

by: Anonymous


Wondering if you found out the maker? I have a piece of pottery marked with the same letters. Can't find it anywhere in the books or internet.
________________________________________


Latest on J and R Mark

by: Jim


No luck yet. Hopefully someone will stumble across it and post the results.

========================

further comment by Peter (admin)


Don't forget, in the above post Kim describes how she took this mark to three separate expert appraisers and got three different answers -

The one I favour is the Dresden maker answer. For me, it has to be a small Dresden maker/decorating shop, perhaps using older molds.

Here's what Kim told us the expert said:-

"Your piece is German but not Rauenstein but one of the smaller Dresden makers. I forget the name right now."

That's my bet.

Peter (admin)
________________________________________

Another Theory for the
by: Peter (admin)


Hi Guys

I may found the answer to this one, maybe? (tentative)

The details are a bit sketchy and until I can do more off-line research, this answer is 'to the best of my knowledge'. I have no citations, so don't quote the following as fact, but I am putting this together to the best of my knowledge at the moment.

If you know more and/or can correct, please post here.

One of the ex-library reference books I just purchased (Porcelain Marks of the World by Emanuel Poche) suggests this exact mark is that of "G. Richard of Milan". However, the book shows a series of marks from 1842 showing various J R (or RJ), initial markings with this one being from 1870.

I don't get why they have the name G. Richard of Milan, when the well known person in all other references I can find is J. Richard (Julius Richard - the founder of the "Ceramic Society Richard"). Is this a typo within the Poche book?

=======================
UPDATE
=======================
The answers above have identified GIULIO RICHARD of MILAN - 1873-1896. Presumably, this is one and the same with a different spelling of the christian name Julius/Giulio (one native Italian, the other anglicised).
=======================
END UPDATE
=======================


The confusing thing is, I can only find the founding date of the "Ceramic Society Richard" as 1873, not 1842. Maybe he made ceramics before founding the society (he was a rich merchant with lots of business interests).

If so, and if the G. Richard is a typo and should read J. Richard, then we have our full story.

The mark is identical in every detail - which is important because there are dozens of slightly different 'R' and cursive JR type marks. It matches - even down to the swirl on the right and the dot on top.

I am not expert enough to know whether the set of wares shown in the top photo by Jim are the type of wares the "Ceramic Society Richard" actually made in 1870, but they do look the part - they have a fancy Italian Naples look to them. Whether they are real or reproductions is something only an expert can tell you.

Julius Richard (thus the 'RJ' or 'JR' marking initials), was a rich English merchant based in Milan, but with merchant activities all over Italy (e.g. Pisa and Naples). He founded a ceramic society in 1873, which then, in 1896, went on to buy the famous old factory of Doccia Ginori (founded in 1737 by nobleman the Marchese Carlo Ginori).

Hopefully, this is the correct deduction, but please be sure to post if I have got this wrong.

=======================
UPDATE
=======================
The above posts question this identification - and it is still in doubt
=======================
END UPDATE
=======================


Peter (admin)
________________________________________

J with R Mark
by: Anonymous


Did you ever find out who made this tea set? I just inherited the same set from my grandparents. I would love to know.

________________________________________


Flower and Berry encrusted cup and saucer with 'R' and Dot Above Mark
by: Kris (Australia)



Flower and Berry encrusted cup and saucer with 'R' and Dot Above Mark


porcelain-mark-r-dot-flower-encrusted-cup



I recently purchased this little cup and saucer in a box lot at an auction.

It is quite small, the cup sitting on the saucer (as in the second picture) is just 60 mm (about two and a half inches) tall.

The saucer is 115 mm in diameter (about four and a half inches). There has been some loss to various stems as they arch away from the cup or saucer.

Although it seems a bit over the top I was taken by the work involved to produce an item like this. I put the item on the ebay community page to try to identify the mark which looked like a script R with a crossbar over the extension of the upright.

They pointed me in the direction of Joseph Gaspard Robert or a later copy of his work. On taking closer photos for this submission I found that instead there is a bar that terminates the upright and then a dot above that.

When you look into the cup you can see a flaw that would have happened in the firing along with some tiny bits of grit in the glaze. The same thing can be seen under the saucer to the left of the backstamp.

I also discovered that a couple of the feet on both the cup and the saucer had been repaired. At some stage they must have been knocked off then glued on again.

I am a bit of a magpie and have quite a few odd pieces that I know nothing to very little about. I am hoping you might be able to give me some more information about this little set.

Many Thanks

Kris
________________________________________

J. Richard or G. Ricard of Milan is the R pottery mark with Dot
by: Peter (admin)


Hi Kris

many thanks for such high quality photos so we could see the inside of this wonderful cup and saucer set.

As I said above, my old Poche reference book is referring to a G. Richard of Milan.

Peter (admin)
________________________________________

POCHE IDENTIFICATIONS
BY
JB



Hi Peter

I`ve been conducting further research into the jR porcelain mark this afternoon and have discovered a second entry on your website concerning the matter. ( I have to admit that I have not, as yet, `sussed-out` the navigation of your site and am unable to link between various posts .... or even find them at all in some instances ) where you mention an entry in Poche.

I hadn`t checked Poche because the reliability of his identifications is extremely suspect in some instances .... or just plain wrong to be blunt. In other instances he can be truly excellent. The layout doesn`t help because it is tediously slow to navigate - truly bizarre. I`ve had a look and I just don`t believe the mark under discussion is that of G.Richard as it is appreciably different from the other forms the company used. It is also quite possibly a muddle with Joseph-Gaspard Robert. That there appears to be both a G. Richard and a J.Richard, both of Milan is easily accounted for - Giulio Richard was Piedmontese Swiss and the German form of Giulio is Julius. Translations can account for a great many errors. The attribution to Luigi Tenelli is understandable ( although LT bears no relation to jR ) as that was the previous name of the company. I pretty much agree with you that the mark is German. You suggest Dresden which I think unlikely as the establishments in Dresden were decorating houses - not manufactories - and the mark is definitely underglaze.

There is a version of the mark which is comprised of finer strokes, more carefully drawn ...... I`m of the opinion that this is by a different manufacturer again. It looks rather like one of the oriental crossed swords marks in style - too perfect.

Best regards

JB

My latest research on the J. or G. Richard mark (Nov 2015)
by: JB

Hi Peter

Re. J. or G. Richard. Check Poche Mark No. 1437.

The J amongst the Gs.

I forgot to say that my current favourite candidate for jR is Julius Rother of Mitterneich ( 1899-1918 ) and/or his successor, Julius Reiber ( also of Selb ) ( 1918-1971. ) Reiber used variations of a conjoined JB mark ( NOT like the one under discussion ) combined with a crown and the word `Bavaria` from 1945 and a less well-known version without the crown or `Bavaria` from 1932. The only mark I can find for Rother - so far - is a pseudo Chinese character seal mark but I`ll keep looking. I`m interested that Rother used a conjoined JB mark as he might have been paying tribute to an earlier mark of his or Rother`s..... just like Royal Worcester use the early Worcester `W` ( x4 ) in a cursive circle at the centre of their mark.

Best regards

Peter

More on the jR marking
by: JB

I`ve had a few notifications from you re the jR marked porcelain threads as you`ve moved things around which have allowed me to view the similarly marked flower encrusted part tea set ............

I now see why you think the attribution might be Dresden. Although the tea set concerned is particularly `orrible and not of very good quality it certainly provokes an impression of Dresden.

Interestingly, the square form of one of the pots seems particularly 20th C which ties-up with something else I`ve seen.

To be fair, most of the figures I`ve seen with the jR mark have been of rather better quality than this.

Yet more evidence of there being at least two factories that used similar versions of the mark.

Regards

JB

Latest buletin - could the JR mark be Julius Rieber?
by: JB


jr-figurine-mark



You will note that the mark does not have the vertical line extend above the loop of the `R` under the dot but I consider this to be an insignificant point and just variation amongst the handpainted figures of the class. Of all the pieces I`ve now seen with this version of the mark the extension has not existed on three but has on five others. The marks are similar enough for me to believe that they are all the output of the same factory.

I still favour Julius Rieber, especially as one of his marks - see PM&M, Germany, Bavaria, Selb. Mark No. 1-01 - dating to c.1910, although of rather different form - does have the dot above.

This mark is overglaze as it comes from the Rieber decorating studio in Selb.

The only problem with this line of investigation is that I have been unable to find a single figure positively attributed to Rother or Rieber with the known marks ..... although I did find one `jR` marked figure where the vendor offered Rother/Rieber as a suggested manufacturer but he/she has done the same as I, working on the available evidence. http://www.marks4antiques.com/porcelain_marks.htm

In their list of porcelain manufacturers list, detail figurines as amongst the output of both Rother and Rieber.

I am convinced that there was at least one other company using a very similar version of this mark which might well be G. or J. Richard.

Ebay USA had a figure in the white with just a couple of blue flower garlands in the adult toddler style with a jR mark but the attribution was total BS - "Very Rare G.Richard Millan 1870 Dresden Porcelain Figurine of a Couple! Kaendler" !!!!!
( My exclamation marks ! )

Milan spelled incorrectly, moved to Dresden and with Kaendler credited.

Why not call it Naples, Doccia and Meissen also!?

I haven`t found a J or G.Richard figure with an attributory factory mark either ........ that`s three possibles but no confirmation which I find suspicious.

Regards

JB

Click here to add your own comments

Join in and write your own page! It's easy to do. How? Simply click here to return to 8. China Chat - Current Unsolved Pottery Mark Investigations.

Search This Site
e.g. for your mystery pottery marks:



VALUATIONS!