Sevres Mark Query - Urn with Ram Handles

by Meagan Yerke
(Lake Panasoffkee, FL, USA)

Urn with Ram Handles and Mark

Urn with Ram Handles and Mark

This urn with ram handles was given to my grandmother by her elderly neighbor when she was a young mother. It has been sitting in my aunts attic for years and was recently rediscovered. My grandmother asked me to investigate it, so I started with the mark on the bottom.


Through my research I have found so many Sevres marks on the internet but none match the one on the bottom of the urn. The only one I found with an "E" in the double L's has a crown over the top. This leads me to believe it is a knock-off, but I would still like to know more and if anyone has seen this particular mark.

The urn is 20"H, 13"W at its roundest part, and the neck is 6"W.

I hope this is enough information.

Thanks,
Meagan

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Comments for Sevres Mark Query - Urn with Ram Handles

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Sevres Mark.
by: Terry O'SHEA

The mark shown is identical to Sevres (France) mark.
Soft-paste porcelain produced 1738 to 1800
Hard-paste porcelain from 1770 to the present day.

The letter 'E' shown in the centre of the mark is
for the year 1757.
Various factories copied the Sevres mark but I am not aware of any using the date letters.
Date letter started in 1753 with letter A. to letter Z in 1777
In 1788 letter AA was used until PP in 1793.
Question on a Similar "Sevres" Mark...
by: ArtfulDodger

I have a piece of fine French porcelain, hand-painted, old (100 years or more), and really quite lovely. It bears the mark "FRANCE" plus a similar Sevres mark as that shown on this page, except, where the mark here bears a capital letter "E" within the double "L" boundary, my mark has a capital letter "A," instead. In researching this, I have seen legitimate Sevres marks showing a lower case "a" within the same plain boundary, and I have seen twin capital "AA" marks, but I have yet to find a legitimate site that shows a Sevres mark with a single capital "A." Would you happen to know if this is a true Sevres mark, or might it be a more modern copycat?

I should mention that I did, actually, find one example of a mark that was identical to mine, but had no way to verify whether it was correct or not. It was posted on a website for a VERY exclusive antique shop, one that specializes in the sale of quality porcelains. Indeed, I couldn't find a single piece of porcelain for sale there that was listed under $3000, so one would like to think they always get it right! Unfortunately, they did not happen to have an example of an item that bore this mark, they simply had the mark posted among other Sevres marks they've declared to be legitimate. While it was nice to see, since I've yet to be able to verify this information as being correct, I thought it would be best to come here and ask you specialists.
Sevres markings - cursive double "L" with capital letter "A" inside
by: Peter (admin)

Dear Artful

Slight correction - the forum is not where the specialist hang out as a rule, although we do get a mystery visitation now and again. This forum is more like a bunch of folk all helping each other out with the bits and pieces they know. However, having said that, we do have some spectacular successes and, like Kathy yesterday, she solved a mystery mark that had been bugging a bunch of us for over a year (Schafer & Vater crown & star). And I am hoping Maria might have a post today which will solve another long standing one. There was no great money involved in these wares, it was more of a a case of scratching an itch, so to speak.

Between us though we have quite a powerful pool of knowledge and, let's face it, this is fun (even when stuff isn't that valuable). I encourage everyone to tell their friends. Look in now and again and 'pay it forward'! My job is ceramic sculpting for bone china figurine production, which is quite taxing and needs long periods of intense concentration, so I like to let off steam by organising this website.

Anyhow, the thing is, I make sure REAL experts are available to us (my own dedicated team of Antiques Roadshow guys - all international auctioneer heads of department and the true specialists). I did this because I found many of the paid for services online actually quite rubbish - and there is a demand for needing to know what stuff we have. Trouble is, with these guys, they are professionals and won't generally vent their knowledge unless someone is paying them. I negotiated what I feel is the best possible solution online - the lowest possible fee for the best possible appraisal. I am not trying to sell this service at all - it's just has to be there for those in need.

Now onto your Sevres markings - cursive double "L" with capital letter "A" inside. I have been doing some research on this.

Again, I can only go by what my books say (Kovels and Millers) - they say (as mentioned above) that your capital letter A mark is the mark from 1753. I couldn't see any reference to a lower case 'a'.

However, that's not the point. I will quote from Miller's Guide to Pottery & Porcelain 2007 edition who make the point better than I could:-

    "It is safe to say that over 95 per cent of pieces bearing the interlaced 'L's of Sevres are later hard-paste copies..."


Most fakes tend to have the early letters for obvious reasons, and the numbers say you have only a very slim chance (less than 5%) of having something genuine. However. I find that even the later hard-paste 'reproductions' have a reasonable value when they are sent for appraisal, after all they are in themselves very old and part of history - but obviously not the silly amounts real Sevres from 1753 would have.

Hope this helps

Peter (admin)
Hmm? .....lower case "a" marking within the double "L" Sevres
by: ArtfulDodger

Thank you, Peter, that made for wonderful reading. I do so wish I had seen that earlier post as I am quite familiar with the Schafer/Vader marks. I will certainly do as you suggest, too, and make certain to check out some of those pesky marks left by others.

As for the above title of "Hmm?" am I just imagining this, or isn't that a lower case "a" within the double "L" posted on this very website denoting the mark of Severs for the year of 1753? (See: https://www.figurines-sculpture.com/pottery-marks.html.)

As for the piece of porcelain in question, it bears a hand-painted historical image. One can, then, date it after 1753 as the event depicted did not even take place until the 1790s. Still, I had some hope that there might be some originality to the piece as it was deaccessioned by one of the Musée Nationals of France (although it might have been best had it come from the Musée National de Céramique, which, unfortunately, it did not). Still, I think it must be a very good piece of porcelain, pottery mark not withstanding, as the artist who painted it does appear on the list of artists known to have painted at the Servres factory. As I said in my original post, it really is quite a wonderful little thing, my enjoyment of which has never had anything to do with financial value, but is wholly about my very real love for the quality of the image it does bear.

I sort of feel like the well-known guest on "Antiques Roadshow" who, looking more than a tad dejected upon learning that the Sevres box being reviewed was a "fake," perked up like a freshly watered flower upon hearing its value was still in the thousands of dollars. (Of course, it didn't hurt that the gosh darn thing was as brashly painted as a line of pretty, pretty-girls in a NOLA tranny bounce- and quite as oversized, as well.)
Sevres Small "a" Mark with Interlaced 'L's
by: Peter (admin)

Artful,

You caught me blushing at the the lack of knowledge of my own site. Indeed I have got a small "a" Sevres mark shown on the main pottery marks page on the Sevres collage. I remember it was taken from an old, free public domain, book of marks (available for viewing online in the Google archives).

Sorry about that and thanks for the correction. Hmmm!

If you have time to upload a pic, of your item (unless you have already done so and I forgot!) then please do so on a normal upload form here. Remind me that it is you (Artful Dodger) and it is for this thread, and I will manually post it in your post above.

Yes, those moments on the Antiques Roadshow are great viewing. They like to milk it - knock you down then build you back up. To me, there is one major fault with these Roadshow types (and they all the same) - unless you have something worth $10,000 they look down their noses at you and don't want to know you. I have to tame that attitude with my guys because, if you have inherited a nice Woods Ivory Ware dinner service from your Gran - a beautifully made piece of Staffordshire history from the 1930's, you don't want to be told by a jumped-up hammer-pounder that your heirloom, worth a few hundred dollars, is a waste of space.

Peter (admin)

p.s. Yes any help on unsolved ones would be brilliant and most appreciated by all.
sevres urn
by: rosanna

I have a blue urn with gold and seahorse handles. it's marked on the bottom in gold sevres # 49 and the sevre mark. Do you think it is fake?
Sevres
by: Anonymous

I have a piece that has the double L mark with S, so would this be genuine? it's a French porcelain pot with lid, but does have a small piece broke off of the lid. Does anyone know an approx value? I could send a picture if anyone want to see it. Thanks alot!
Sevres marks
by: Anonymous

Hello.
Here are some information from a French porcelain collector :

1) A double L with a S is quite often a fake.
2) France would never be written under a 18th century Sèvres piece.
3) Sèvres marks changed after the French Revolution.
The blue underglaze double L was replaced by different marks according to the periods (see porcelain marks books)

Hoping it helsp...
help to identify the sevres date mark
by: Anonymous

http://img297.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=888468285_1_122_508lo.jpg

Is this a genuine sevres date mark? I did some research but could not get it identified? Thanks.
Pair of Urns
by: Anonymous

I have a pair of Urns that has the double "L" on the base(not on the bottom but on cobalt blue) with an S 3 not inside the double "L" but under it and it also has peinte a la main and the picture on it was signed by Jeanne
Samson, I'm afraid.
by: Anonymous

Hi,

The urn is Samson, 19th century and would have had a lid originally. Samson copied all manner of porcelains and marks. This style and decoration is not of an 18th century Sevres type.

Hope this helps.
Serves two Ls interlinked with A jewelry box NEW
by: Anonymous

I’m interested in selling this item
Fake Sevres NEW
by: Anonymous

Very interesting read. Thank you. If you are interested there is currently available (at a popular online auction) a 'sevres' coffee cup and saucer, with the double'L' surrounding the letter 'S', exactly what has been described in this thread. It appears fake to me judging by the quality of painting and guilding but also there is no wear on the gild

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