Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant

by Etta
(Bristol)

Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant

Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant

Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant
Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant
Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant

Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant:- I've been clearing out my mother's house and have found lots of 'bits and bobs' that she has picked up over the years. This dish was on her window sill filled with pot pourri. I cannot find this mark anywhere. The pattern is obviously something to do with the Empire?


Any ideas?

Etta

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HOW I MADE MONEY FROM BITS & BOBS OF OLD CHINA

antique china values
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Hi Etta

The answer to this one is not so obvious - although there are several older companies using a double lion mark, none of them look exactly like this mark. I need some time to think about this one....

I will publish anyway and with a bit of luck, one of our knowledgeable contributors will help out on this one – (check out the comments section below for replies).

I’ll try to get back to this one later. If you can’t wait and need to know soonest, use the expert referral service here:

Best regards

Peter (admin)

p.s. The following page is a 'must see' if you are researching fine china - for value and identification:-

Researching the identity and value of antique and vintage fine china.

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UPDATE:
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We have found the answer to what this beautiful collection is. It is modern reproduction, sold from a beautiful top-end Italian website anticheriproduzioni.com (likely made in China to the specification of the Italian designers who love the old traditional English look).

Scroll down to the last few posts on this page for more information
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end update

Comments for Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant

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Me too!
by: Diane

I have a piece that I wanted to sell that also has this mark. I can't find anything anywhere that matches it.

Same Here!
by: Robin

I have a tea set with this mark and can find nothing! Help!

Lions Rampant Coat of Arms Mark Device on Antique China Server Dish
by: Peter (admin)

Hi Guys

I have now had time to have a quick look at this mark. There is no quick definitive answer to this mark, so I am going to start the ball rolling and show my research so far.

We all need to get our heads together to solve this one.

First, please send in pics of the wares to me here and I will publish here on this thread. Please send the pics to me and mark them as for the "Lions Rampant Forum Thread"

Here's my email:-

peteradmin@theclayartist.com

Here's what I know so far:-

This is a process of elimination.

The double lions rampant crest is mainly associated with the Coat of Arms of Eastern Bavaria which is a historic hot-spot for producing porcelain.

Several companies from this region used lions rampant in various forms - but none of them exactly like the one above.

Other countries also used the double lion motive, namely the US and the UK. It is fairly unusual for the UK makers to use the double lion because their national symbol is the lion and unicorn rampant of which there are literally thousands of examples. Many of the pioneering US porcelain and pottery making firms used German ex-patriot people to design and control production, so to a Bavarian symbol would not have been such a leap.

Here is a list of the firms using the lion rampant device:-

Bavaria

single rampant lion - Schumann of Arzberg Bavaria Germany

double rampant lion - Rother/Rieber & Co of Mitterteich Bavaria Germany

double rampant lion - Tettau/Beyreuth of Tettau Bavaria Germany

USA

double rampant lion - Steubenville Pottery of Steubenville, Ohio, USA

double rampant lion - Vodrey Bros of East Liverpool, Ohio USA

double rampant lion - Anchor Pottery of Trenton, NJ

UK

double rampant lion - Wood & Sons Ltd of Burslem, Staffordshire

double rampant lion - Ridgway of Hanley, Staffordshire

One final thought for now. The Japanese makers of the post war period were a dab-hand at mocking up European looking wares and pottery marks (particularly German) and making them look old and antique (as are modern Chinese makers).

There is something about the mark that reminds me of some of the made up marks I have seen. It is the graphic style and the printing method which gives me this impression. I wouldn't discount the fact that this dish might be from post-war Japan with a mark made to look German.

Please contribute with any ideas of your own.

Many thanks

Peter

Lions Rampant Forum Thread Photos
by: Greg

Hi here are some pics of the artifact. Needing any help you can toss our way.

These came from a little village in upstate New York
Thanks

Greg

two lions rampant pottery mark

A helpful link?
by: Greg

Here is an out of print book I found on Google Books


http://books.google.com/books?id=7fQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=pottery+companies+using+a+coat+of+arms&source=bl&ots=ycWpwZHB_G&sig=MMtxMyVo55XvwMJ_tmIEBWL9KG0&hl=en&ei=s1YwTdvsGoTogQfUo_HHCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

a bit shorter

http://tinyurl.com/4uvyepn

Has some really old marks in it.

same two lions rampant pottery mark on teapot
by: Diane Mason

Peter!

Thank you for following up on this pottery mark. I am a novice at looking for these marks and I've exhausted my searching leads on the internet. I truly appreciate your curiosity for finding out what this oddity is!

I've attached a picture of the chocolate pot/coffee pot. If you need more pictures or close ups, please let me know and I will be happy to take more pics... this is just what I have right now.

Thanks again,

Diane Mason

two lions rampant on teapot

Lion coat of arms
by: Barb

I Just brought a tea set on a tray with two lions coat of arms the same as the one above. It doesn't say what it is, it only says unidentified.
Thanks
Barb

double lions rampant mark - more pictures of wares
by: Debra Causey

Hi,

I found your thread after just purchasing two pieces of china at an estate sale, I would like to know the origin as I'm a history buff, I don't care if it's worthless because it's so beautiful and unusual. I have provided photos which are attached below.

Thank you,

Debra

double lions rampant mark


double lions rampant mark


double lions rampant mark


double lions rampant mark



Lions Rampant Pottery Mark on (Antique?) Fine China Ware
by: Peter (admin)

Lions Rampant Pottery Mark on (Antique?) Fine China Ware

Hi Debra

Many thanks for these very crisp and clear photos. These pictures help with another level of clues for us to cogitate on.

We are looking at trying to narrow down the options listed above; - the Bavarian fine china makers whose regional symbol is the double lion device; plus the UK, US and Japanese manufacturers who followed suit and used the same motif.

Looking at your photos the first thing that is clear the items are nicely made. There is quite a bit of skill in the making. Unfortunately, that doesn't help narrow down the options because all the above are very capable of making nice quality porcelain and semi-porcelain, as are modern Chinese makers. I think we can rule out bone china due to the off-white colour.

Also, the other thing about your pictures is they do not show much evidence of age. The items are almost too clean and pristine to have been hanging around that long.

One thing for sure is these makers are dealing in well made reproduction items. In other words, in looking at Debra's photos we can conclude the period scenes depicted and the Rococo decorations applied are not contemporary with the date the items were made.

This factor might be more consistent with later 20th Century Japanese wares and modern Chinese manufacture than the UK and American makers listed above, who were more often than not designing wares relating to current trends of the day - the fashions of the moment.

These items of Debra's are blatantly trying to look historic - specifically of the Rococo period of the 1700's. This practice did sometimes occur with the UK and US makers mentioned above, but the difference is, the particular double lion rampant mark we are trying to identify is not ever shown in any of the mark references for any of these companies - not in any of the books or online resources I have at my disposal.

One of the Bedford Works marks of Ridgway from the 1930's looks quite similar, but there are marked differences - and I have only ever seen this mark with the words "Ridgways Bedford Works England", which is quite unequivocal.

Similarly, the double lion marks of Bayreuth have the words "PT Germany" or "Royal Beyreuth, Bavaria".

Having looked at this mark and the range of nice quality fine china which the pottery mark is applied to, I feel this mark is most likely modern Chinese or mid to late 20th Century Japanese.

Perhaps the biggest clue to the this is the fact that this mark is trying very hard to look old, yet there are no references to it anywhere in the whole world either on or offline, except on this forum.

Thanks for these great clues Debra.

Peter

Pottery Mark with 2 Lions on a coat of arms
by: Debra Causey

Hi Peter,

Thank you so much for your quick response. I should have mentioned that there were two other pieces at the estate sale that I did not purchase but also had this exact marking. I was able to find a photo posted on their website so I'm attaching it as well (see below). The two items are the white and green lidded pieces.

Thank you again and I'll keep you posted as my research continues.

Debra Causey

FIGURINES SCULPTURE

Two Lions Rampant
by: Anonymous

I have been selling pottery and glassware for over 20 years. I have a teapot with the mark and can tell you it is very recent. I believe it is a china or japan company trying to make things in an older vintage style - not necessarily reproduction but more decorator type looks. Although I do not value them as antiques, they are still decorative and have a market - most pieces would sell in my shop around $20-$30. My best guess is circa 1990-present.

So do I
by: Armando

Hi all,
i have a same object that show two lions rampant.
The mark is the same.
I'm writing from italy. Are all sure that it's a fake?

same marking on brand new design
by: Kristen

If it's any help, I just purchased a teacup with this symbol on it, and the shop owner (who I know knows her stuff) said it was a recently released design. If I find out from her what company it is, I will re-post...

Double Lion Crest Mark
by: Peter (admin)

Hi All

I think we can conclude that all the evidence points to the fact that this is modern production from China. The maker, who is, as yet unidentified, uses the latest technology to produce very nice looking and good quality replicas of older looking wares. They have developed a pottery mark reminiscent of older European marks (see the prior post of mine which lists the various makers using the double lion crest).

This technique of using European looking marks which give no clue as to who the maker actually is, is a typical trait of Far East manufacturers in the mid to late 20th century and the 21st century.

I wouldn't say these wares could be correctly described as 'fakes' as such, they are modern reproductions. The problem is with sellers who muddy the waters and try to pass them off as antiques.

Peter (admin)

Mystery Solved
by: Debra Causey

I have been checking ebay and Etsy to see if I came across any other pieces that were similar to the cake stand that I had purchased at an estate sale this past summer. Last week I found 3 brand new cake servers with this exact marking that are identical in design but have a toile pattern so the mystery is solved.

Thank you Peter for all of your help.

Debra Causey

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MYSTERY SOLVED !!!!!!!!!!

=============Double Lion Crest Pottery Mark

by: Armando

It isn't the mark of modern reproduction Chinese porcelain, but the mark of a specialist Italian furniture reproduction (and other reproduction interior accessories including fine china porcelain)

http://www.anticheriproduzioni.com

Mystery is solved.

Thank you all

Armando

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Peter (admin) says:-

Hi Armando

Great shout out - thanks. I looked on the site and can see this is exactly the type of maker - high quality modern reproduction of quality historic items for interiors. Actually, typical grand Italian taste. Beautiful! I didn't see the actual mark on the site anywhere, but I guess you must have further knowledge on this.

The only thing I would add though is that my guess would be the fine china items are, in fact, sourced from China. The prices shown on the website are wholesale, and this company would be hard pressed to get English or European makers to show those prices and make a profit if they were made anywhere but the Far East. Therefore, in this case, the concept, design and mark is of Italian origin, the actual make is like Chinese. I don't know this for sure though, so if anyone knows different, please post.

Peter (admin)

Armando for president.
by: Joe


Thank you Armando. This mark has been driving me crazy.

Just a reminder about the P.T. Bavaria Mark
by: Peter (admin)

I have just done a bit of research on the PT Bavaria mark - with a wreath and shield and this is a mark of the Tirschenreuth Porcelain factory from the town of Tirschenreuth. Also known as ‘Oberpfalz China’ on some of their marks.

Here's the mark in question:-


p-t-shield-wreath-tirschenreuth-oberpfalz-china



Here's what our German porcelain expert had to say about this mark in a recent report for a visitor appraisal:-

The shield wreath PT mark of the TIRSCHENREUTH PORCELAIN FACTORY was used c.1900 – c.1927, or so say all reliable reference authorities on the marks used by this factory. This quality maker was founded originally in 1838, and taken into the larger HUTSCHENREUTHER Group in 1927. They were also known as ‘Oberpfalz China’ which they used on certain marks. Your pattern is a fairly standard transfer print pattern for the period and would not necessarily be sought after at auction, so the average hammer prices remain quite modest considering the age and quality. Average auction prices are quite typically less than the retail/replacement prices (retailers have warehouse costs, staff overheads and stockholdings etc).

me also!
by: jacki

My plate has the exact same marking but has B & B underneath it. Help!!!!

I have a tea set with this mark
by: Jackie

I purchased a beautiful blue and creme teapot with four large footed cups while on a trip to Westport, Canada around 2005. It has the same mark as shown in the above posts. I have since returned every year but was unable to find any more like it. I adore this set - it is my favorite but until now I have not been able to find any information on it. Does anyone know if it is safe for steeping tea? I have read a recent post on eBay regarding peices such as this that are strictly for decorative purposes because of the high lead content. I have been serving tea to my family almost daily from this teapot and I am now concerned. Any information on the lead content of this type of teapot and teacups? Is it meant for decoration only or is it actually meant for use? Thanks for any info you have!

tea set two lion heads
by: Anonymous

have a beautiful tea set i bought from a yard sale same marking ...does anyone one how much can i sell it for....


Double Lion Rampant:
by: Michelle

Hi Everyone!

Thanks for sharing. I have a tea set and a porcelain bag with this mark.
Someone please tell me something more precise!
My husband thinks I was duped.
I bought them in Venice.

Same mark on vase
by: Sabrina

I recently purchased a vase at a yard sale with this same mark and have been going crazy trying to identify it! It is clearly a reproduction piece, albeit lovely and I am glad I did not pay a lot of money for it! I'd like to add a phot but not sure if I can. . .

Unidentified coat of arms pottery mark with two lions rampant
by: Elaine

I have a complete tea set with matching tray, with the above stamp on the bottom of each piece. Would like info on this set, value? Will e-mail pictures. Thank you.

1891 McKinley Tariff Law
by: Anonymous

In 1891 the McKinley Tariff law dictated that all porcelain had to have a country of origin on it. This double headed lion mark has no country of origin on it. Please explain why if this is indeed a new or reproduction mark.

The Mckinlay Tarrif Act - How It Applies
by: Peter (admin)

The tariff law was amended in the 1930's and liberalized in 2002, so no longer applies as it did in 1891.

Also, in the mid to latter part of the 20th century, it was also very easy to work around for exporters who wanted to disguise the country of origin.

Allow me to explain....

The Mckinlay act of 1890 and the clarifications of the 1930’s allowed clever operators certain loopholes in the country of origin law.

Effectively, imported ceramic products from the 1960s did not have to have a printed/fired backstamp either under or over glaze.

Therefore reproduction items from China/Hong Kong only had to have a label indicating country-of-origin "in the same form in which it was imported" up to the point it reached the end-consumer. Once the 'end-user' had bought the item, the label could be removed, and of course, in time, sold on.

This wording of the law allows for many ceramic items from the Far East second made in the second half of the 20th century to be legally free of any need for country of origin labeling whist placed on the secondary market. It is not surprising we see many sticky or paper labels discarded.

Furthermore, unwrapped items were exempt from the country of origin laws, so if they were brought in without wrapping, the law did not apply.

Hope this gives an idea of how the import market works.

Peter (admin)

Double Rampant Lion Mark
by: Suzz

I checked out the webpage that was sited as being the answer to the mystery of this mark- Italian reproductions - however, I couldn't find anything with the mark on it. Did anyone else check it out?

I checked it out
by: Peter (admin)

Hi

Yes, I went to the Italian reproduction site a couple of years ago and they had this 'English' style range and mark. They no longer have the range and are now doing reproduction Tuscan pottery.

I guess they change the ranges every now and again.

Best regards

Peter (admin)

??? What is this mark NEW
by: ArtistM

Purchased a creamer & sugar bowl on platter with handle. Red pattern. Would like to get the answer to this mark on the bottom. How do I post a picture?

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