Fleur de Lys Pottery Mark - Antique China and Fine China Collectibles Query

by Anon

Fleur de Lys Pottery Marks  -  Possibly Marseilles or Rouen

Fleur de Lys Pottery Marks - Possibly Marseilles or Rouen





Fleur de Lys Pottery Mark - Antique China and Fine China Collectibles Query:- I am looking for the mark - 3 small fleur de lyse on top of 1 large fleur de lyse I cant find it anywhere. It is green.

Reply from Peter (admin) below - just scroll down


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Reply by Peter (admin)

To:- Fleur de Lys Pottery Mark - Antique China and Fine China Collectibles Query

Hi Anon

First of all, I would recommend the following option for any visitor who thinks they may have something either valuable, rare, or mysterious (and I would include almost anything with a Fleur de Lys pottery mark in this category):

www.figurines-sculpture.com/antique-china-values.html

This is a page I've written especially to help my visitors research their wares. It includes a unique identification & valuation resource with a professional appraiser (checked out by myself) who can let you know if your mark is identifiable by experts without you having to pay any money upfront. This service is unique online and is designed to protect my site visitors from wasting their time and money online.

Getting back to your query, it would've been helpful to include a photo so we can see what we're dealing with.

If your camera's not that great at close-ups you can sometimes get a much better image of the pottery mark by scanning it in an ordinary scanner!

Anyway, by a process of deduction and with the information you provided I hope to be able to point you in the right direction.

The Fleur de Lys pottery mark is not that widely used a china marking. There is no well known or well documented maker that I can find who used the exact pottery base mark that you describe (3 small fleur de lys on top of 1 large fleur de lys).

As the continental name suggests, the Fleur de Lys type pottery mark was mainly used on the continent, with only a small handful of UK makers using china marks with a Fleur de Lys.

There are only two options in my view, for who made your items. The first is that it is a small, rarely documented manufacturer, probably in Europe. The second is the mark is a variation of a better known makers mark.






All I can do to help you in your search is list firstly the documented makers who use a pottery mark with three small Fleur de Lys. Then I will list all the ones who use a single Fleur de Lys.

The following are makers who are documented to use a pottery mark with three small Fleur de Lys:

1. Joseph Schachtel of Charlottebrunn, Silesia, Germany

2. Marseilles Potteries - the 3 Fleur de Lys mark was known to be used by some of the prominent 18th Century 'faience factories' in Marseilles - noted for their informal, lead glazed, brightly colored enamel-decorated earthenwares, showing natural subject matter such as fish and flowers. Possibly the factory is Honore Savy, founded 1770 (a former partner of Veuve Perin), but that would have to be confirmed by specialist appraisers.

Other factories known to have used a single Fleur de Lys:

European:

C. Tielsch of Atwasser, Silesia, Germany

Limoges (Used the Fleur de Lys after the Royal takover after 1784)

Bien Ritiro of Madrid, Spain - Fleur de Lys pottery mark used 1760 - 1804.

Duc de Penthievre of Sceaux, France

Pont-aux-Chou of Paris, France - Fleur de Lys pottery mark registered in 1777.

Saint Cloud of Seine-et-Oise, France - The Fleur de Lys appears on soft-paste porcelain 1700 - 1766.

Capodimonte, Italy - Two types of Fleur de Lys markings appear from c1745, one with a circle is impressed and the other not so, appears in gold.

Rouen (an early center NW of Paris) is known to have used the Fleur de Lys mark.

Sevres, France - known to have used the Fleur de Lys pottery mark also. The porcelain marks of Sevres have been many and varied throughout the long history, but Fleur de Lys marks have been recorded as early as 1753.

English and American makers known to have used the Fleur de Lys pottery mark are:

Barker Bros, Lane End, Staffs

Cook Pottery Company, Trenton, NJ, USA

Mintons, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffs

Hammersley & Asbury, Longton, Staffs

John Turner, Longton, Staffs.

Hope this information helps.

Best regards,

Peter (admin)

p.s. The following page is a 'must see' if you are researching fine china - for value and identification:-

Researching the identity and value of antique and vintage fine china.

Comments for Fleur de Lys Pottery Mark - Antique China and Fine China Collectibles Query

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Did John Turner use the Fleur de Lys as a pottery mark? Antique China Comment
by: Anonymous

Did John Turner use the Fleur de Lys as a pottery mark? Antique China Comment: I have heard that John Turner of Lane End (Longton) used the Fleur de Lys as his mark from a couple of historians now. Oddly enough they have failed to include the common mark that Turner is so well known for as his most used mark.

All of the pottery of John Turner (when on his own) that I have seen simply has "TURNER" impressed into it.

Does anybody have any real information of John Turner using the Fleur de Lys as his mark?

Rob

===============================================

Reply by Peter (admin)

to: Did John Turner use the Fleur de Lys as a pottery mark? Antique China Comment.

Hi Rob

Thanks for taking the time to contribute to this fleur-de-Lys pottery mark query thread.

I can tell you exactly the well documented use of John Turner's Fleur-de-Lys pottery mark. Turner used the Fleur-de-Lys mark (either printed or impressed) from 1784 when he was appointed potter to the Prince of Wales.

Here is a brief history of John Turner (Turner & Co also rarely I. Turner), potter to Royalty.

Based in Lane End, Longton, Turner founded his business around 1762. Upon his death on 1787, he was succeeded by his sons; John and William. The firm closed in 1806. They had developed a new type of stoneware around 1800 (called Turner's patent) which they sold the rights to Spode in 1805. Presumably, they made enough to retire on??

The main mark was the impressed pottery mark of "TURNER" (note: impressed and just one word "TURNER"). Other variations included Turner & Abbot (c.1784 - 1786) and Turner & Abbot & Co. (c. 1799).

Turner was not known for porcelains, but did produce some rare items which can be found with the above main pottery mark . Some jasper portrait and figural subject plaques of Wedgwood bear this mark, but others the same or similar bear only impressed numbers.

Thanks for your contribution.

Don't forget, visitors who think they may have something either valuable, rare, or mysterious may take advantage my research page which allows you to make contact with an expert appraiser:-

China antique valuation and identification page click here to find out more. Very useful for reselling and verification (adds value to items to have a certified appraisal).

Otherwise, to carry on the fun and learn how to do it properly. I recommend an ebook which gives away all the tricks of the trade called ['How To Buy & Sell Antiques For Fun & Profit'.]

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Best regards

Peter (admin)

Did John Turner use the Fleur de Lys as his mark?
by: old-bonez

I've been researching the potter John Turner for some 5 years now and have never seen any piece marked that way that was attributed to him.

The main text that I have found that made that claim is a book called "Ancient Brewood". Sadly the book makes a few false claims about John Turner and these same errors are repeated in the book "Turners of Lane End".

My research reveals that John Turner never lived in Brewood & I have found no record of this Turner family living there in that time period.

It was his wifes father William Emery that leased Brewood Hall and the lease passed onto his son Samuel Emery who married John Turners sister Sarah in 1762. ... From her wedding record apparently John Turners Father was a Henry S Turner.

With these two major errors about John Turner in the book "Ancient Brewood" I'm now seriously asking about the information that the Fleur de Lys was actually used by Turner as a mark. I had always presumed it was a mark used by him prior to setting up in Lane End. If John Turner never lived in Brewood Hall then how can he be inspired by it's gateposts which featured the Fleur de Lys as claimed in the book. By the time he married his wife Ann Emery he had already set up in Lane End and I presume he was using the impressed TURNER mark.

I'm not saying that he didn't use it however I'd appreciate any input from your readers that may put this situation on a clearer path.

old-bonez

The Truth About John Turner
by: Peter (admin)

Great contribution, many thanks fro your article.

This highlights exactly why I have this site set up in such a way - to give a chance for serious research to be presented and a useful public record.

I am no expert on John Turner, so the info I read up on might well have been flawed as far as I know. So you have done me and all the visitors a great service by posting here.

Please freely to post any information research you may wish to right here.

If you want to include photos, just sent them to me and I will include with your posts.

Click here to e-mail me your pics




If for some reason the above link is not working for you, then just copy and paste my address into your email:-

peter@theclayartist.com


Regards

Peter (admin)

Was it actually the Prince of Wales Feathers?
by: Anonymous

Hi Peter.

It's been a couple of years since my last comment here on the Fleur de Lys being used by Turner.

I have been unable to find any connection of the two during this time and I'm starting to wonder if a bad impression of Turners "Prince of Wales Feathers" has at some time been mistaken as a Fleur de Lys Pottery Mark.

I'd be interested in what others think!

Old-Bonez

Fleur de Lys gold mark
by: Sylvia

Hi!

I enherited a few cups with saucer from my grandmother. They are pearlised/pearl sheen china cups with gold rimming and a scene of a lady with a man with a golden fleur de Lys mark on the bottom of the saucer, and then under the fleur de Lys mark it says :versailles, also in gold. Could you help me to identify where they were made? In which year?

Thank you for your time.
kind regards,
Sylvia.

(my email is : sylviachristina7733@yahoo.com)

Two marks -- one on top of glaze
by: Devin Bent

A demitasse, hand painted with two numbers on cup -- 9830 and 11. What appears to original mark -- a single fleur de lis with a T and what may be Germany under it. In a pink orange. On the saucer, a small mark and 786 stamped on it.

But appearing to be on top of the glaze, a green crowned eagle looking to the its right. C.T. under it. Germany under that on cup, but not on saucer.

Everyone seems to say that the green eagle is Cart Tielsch. I suspect the pink-orange fleur de lis is also.

Could this have been make right when the firm changed marks? Would it then be about 1875?

505-699-9042
devin.bent@gmail.com

amending post about two marks on one cup
by: Devin Bent

I have now noticed that the two green eagle marks are not quite the same.

On the saucer the green eagle seems to be under the glaze, the C. T. are closer together, the eagle is holding fascia(?), seems to have a crown and does NOT have Germany underneath.

On the cup, the eagle seems to be above the glaze, lacks a crown, not holding fascia,has Germany underneath. It also has numbers in pink-orange 9830 with the zero gone over at least once, and the number 11 below that.

The eagle appears to be wearing off the cup so I am not sure about the lack of a crown.



More on two marks fleur de lis and green eagle, both CT
by: Devin Bent

Took high density photos, cropped, blew up, heightened contrast.

With the fleur de lis mark, a C is superimposed on the T.

The first number may be 983D not 9830.

The Carl Tielsch double marked base dates to c.1895 to 1900.
by: Peter (admin)

Hi Devin

Many thanks for the photos, I have uploaded them just below my comments here.

The Carl Tielsch marks and history are very well documented by Chris Marshall on his website, see....

www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/silesia/altwasser_1/00.php

The double mark is shown as being from c.1895 to c.1900.

Carl Tielsch is from the long disputed border area of Silesia, rich in economic resources, which today is designated as belonging to Poland. When the Tielsch factory of Altwasser (known as Stary Zdrój today) began in 1845, Silesia was a Prussian Province. It became engulfed in the large German Empire in 1871. The people of Silesia are split mainly into 3 groups:- German speaking, Polish origin and there are also many groups of people of Czech decent.

According to Chris Marshall, some of Tielsch's marks were deliberately made to be very similar to KPM Berlin's and also he had an admiration for the work of F.A. Schumann (founded 1836) whose mark was an eagle.

Peter (admin)

FIGURINES SCULPTURE


Fleur de Lys and the word Versailles NEW
by: Anonymous

Hai,

I saw the comment Sylvia wrote but couldn't find the answer on her question. I as well have a tea set that are stamed with a golden mark of the fleur de lys and the word versailles. I have searched a lot on the internet but can't find the answer anywhere. Can you help me?

Fleur de Lys and the word Versailles NEW
by: Anonymous

Hai,

I saw the comment Sylvia wrote but couldn't find the answer on her question. I as well have a tea set that are stamed with a golden mark of the fleur de lys and the word versailles. I have searched a lot on the internet but can't find the answer anywhere. Can you help me?

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