Cursive 'A' & 'B' European 'Military' Scene Porcelain Mark

by Pentti
(Helsinki, Finland)

Cursive 'A' & 'B' European 'Military' Scene Porcelain Mark Query

Cursive 'A' & 'B' European 'Military' Scene Porcelain Mark Query

Cursive 'A' & 'B' European 'Military' Scene Porcelain Mark Query:- I have had already for some years some fine pieces of porcelain works, which are vases and plates. They are marked with mark AB ,where B is on A. Beside that marking there is number marking with gold


(EXAMPLE:"592").

This mark is very similar to "Bauscher Bothers" mark, but is however different. My opinion is that mark on my porcelain wares is quite a bit older than that.

Most of these items are military porcelain style.
When the military plates from Nichol I time are
23,5...24 cm, these military plates are size of 30cm.

The paintings with military scenes are just the same figures as in those very valuable Russian Imperial military plates, but the painting quality is not so good as in those Nichols I era works.

There are some differences with gilding, so that
in twin eagle - marks there are instead of St.George same marks and symbols as city of Meissen.

Regards

Pentti

=====================================

Reply from Peter (admin) below - just scroll down

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Reply by Peter (admin)

Hi Pentti

Many thanks for the photos which I have now uploaded and are shown at the top of the page. You are sharing a fantastic story with us all for which I am very grateful.

I will try to put some intelligent comment to help with your detective work on Imperial Russian/Lomonosov though English bone china firms are more my cup of tea (so to speak).

Let's say straight away that the mark is not one flagged up in any of my reference books and there in virtually nothing online to go by.

However, I did some sniffing around using the various sources I outline on my China Replacements page and came up with some interesting information.

The Russian Imperial Porcelain Manufactory (also known as the Lomonosov Porcelain Factory) was founded in 1744 with a brief to produce hard-paste porcelain and that their plates, the 23.5cm ones you talk about (from the Nicholas I era) fetch fantastical prices like between 30,000 and 100,000 euros each plate!

Lomonosov Russian Imperial Porcelain Plate - Value of


Your 30cm plates looks very similar in design around the gold edging as the above priceless ones. I can't see much difference myself, from the photographs. At least, they are from the same family. Details might be different, but they look to be from the same stable - or from a very conscientious reproduction factory.

So, the question is, are we talking about later reproductions by Lomonosov, or repros from elsewhere (for example Germany)?

As you well know, the A B mark is not the normal one associated with Imperial Russian/Lomonosov. I checked on a specialist Imperial Russian/Lomonosov website (now defunct) which listed all of them up to and including 1918 - and does not include any of your A B marks.

I was thinking this through and I saw one interesting story. Around 1860 Alexander II commissioned a service for his childhood pal and conquering general of the Crimean War, Prince Alexander Bariatinsky (A B). This service was still in production right up to the period of Nicholas II leading up to the revolution of 1917. Could this specially commissioned service have had a different pottery mark?

This was my flight of fancy until I dug a bit further and got my Russian-speaking neighbor to inform me that the letter that looks like an 'A' is, in fact the Cyrillic alphabet version of 'L' (for Lomonosov)..... and the 'B' is, in fact, a back to front capital cursive 'E' which is the Cyrillic version of 'Z' - which is the Russian word for factory "Zavod" (or zabog in cyrillic).

In fact, if you look at the more modern marks for Lomonosov, they all seem to feature the 'L' and 'Z' cursive letters which look like 'A' and 'B'.

So this seems to put your wares into at least a post 1918 era maybe (if it is Lomonosov not a German rip-off)

Here is an example of a modern Lomonosov mark (you can see plainly the 'A' and 'B' marks left and right):
Lomonosov Russian Imperial Porcelain Manufactory


See this Lomonosov website for more examples of modern marks

The middle mark is the first letter for the Russian word for porcelain which is "farfor," derived from the Arabic "Fakhfur". The cyrillic letter for 'F' looks a bit like our 'Q' but with a longer stroke going down the middle rather than the side. This explaines the device in the middle inbetween the 'A B' (or L Z).

So to translate the modern graphic device above, it says:-

L F Z

meaning....

Lomonosov Farfor Zavod

Translated as....

Lomonosov Porcelain Factory

Your mark, without the 'F' for porcelain, means simply "Lomonosov Factory".

Whether a real mark post 1918 or a German rip-off only an expert can tell you.

I suggest you continue your research armed with this knowledge.

Best regards

Peter (admin)

p.s. The following page is a 'must see' if you are researching fine china - for value and identification:-

Researching the identity and value of antique and vintage fine china.

Please post comments below which you think might be helpful……

Comments for Cursive 'A' & 'B' European 'Military' Scene Porcelain Mark

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Lomonozov Imperial Porcelain Manufactory Fakes
by: Miikka

Lomonozov Imperial Porcelain Manufactory Fakes

Hello Pentti,

both the plates and the vase representing Russian soldiers are modern fakes. The plates come at least in 6 different types. Their marks differ (for identical plates). Sometimes they are:-

Imperial Porcelain Manufactory marks,

other times Meissen or Sevres.

Also, they always look a little worn never excessively (as gilding could), never broken and never perfect. I have seen them on eBay and on dodgy internet antiques sellers' websites but never in reputable auctions.

They are beautiful as they are, so can have prices of a couple of hundred euros. The same goes for the vase.

Israel is one of the producers of Russian style fakes and I have seen these being sold by Israeli sellers, but this is almost a guess. More information: m@rosvot.net

AB cursive mark
by: Anonymous

http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/germany18.shtml

It seems to me that "AB" cursive mark is a German one.

"A and B" Cyrillic letters stand for "L and F"
by: Peter (admin)

Many thanks for your contribution. I looked on the Old & Sold link you gave and it doesn't help that they seem to admin issues on the listing of 31, 32, and 33. Unlike their normal method of cataloguing, they have no clear indication of which factory or factories used the marks shown for those 3 numbers.

Obviously no. 31 is the "AB" one we are debating on this page, but all Old & Sold can give us is this

"6 From 1801",

whatever that means (unless I am missing something).

In any case, the letters look to me clearly like the A and B Cyrillic letters (as explain above) which stand for "L and F" (presumably meant to hint at the Lomonosov Factory).

Anyhow, you seeing this mark listed in the German marks section of Old & Sold, even if there is no explanation or factory attribution, backs up the theory (mentioned above) these might be German reproductions, rather than the Israeli ones as mentioned by Miikka.

Peter (admin)

Family Arms Archenievski
by: Jérôme

Dear Sirs,
I think the arms shown in the center of eagles are more like those of the family Archenievski than the city of Meissen.


family-arms-eagles-archenievski


photo courtesy of commons.wikimedia.org


Sincerely.

Jérôme.

Russian Military Plate Marks
by: Anonymous

To me the merged letters are A R standing for Agustus Rex marking the personal china of the King of Saxony by Meissen. The mark was used by Helena Wolfson china which Meissen took her to court and she was heavily fined. Subsequently she changed her mark to D or Dresden. I hope this comment is helpful.

Bauscher Weiden
by: Karl

This mark is a rare an early mark of the producer "Gebr. Bauscher, Weiden" in Bavaria, Germany. (Gebr. means Gebrüder means Brothers).
Used from 1882 and contains the Letters A and B like the famous Meissen-mark.

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